So Many Questions
Craig Rivet is a Sabre.
So are Afinogenov, Kotalik, and Peters.
Steve Bernier is not.
The fact that it was Bernier and not Max or Kotalik shows you where the market is. Teams didn’t want to take the risk on either of them when they could take the risk on a less-expensive, younger winger. So Bernier had to be the one to go. The market speaks.
It still doesn’t solve the fact that Afinogenov is on the roster but does not have a spot. He’s not a fit on any potential line combinations I can envision. I don’t like the thought of the RAV line being put back together at the expense of Drew Stafford. We have to assume Connolly plays some games and allows Hecht to move back to left wing, and Pominville hooks up with them. Gaustad, Paille, and Kotalik make another line. The Sabres usually don’t start a kid like Gerbe off in the bigs, so do you have a Mair – MacArthur – Afinogenov combo, or is it Kaleta instead of one of them?
Regardless, that fourth line just doesn’t work for me. Of course, Connolly could end up out for the year with a severe skin rash, which would throw everything off.
I don’t disapprove of Regier not moving Max if he has no serious takers. While he may have been “too much” last year, his previous two seasons were pretty nice, and I am going to guess there may be more interested takers at the trade deadline. But can the Sabres live with him until then? Or, what if he’s the same-old Max and the Sabres find they have no choice but to release him to give one of the kids a shot?
As for what Rivet does for the back-end, I’m all for it. Pair him up with Tallinder for your top-pair, or spread out the talent by matching him with Spacek, or put him with Lydman. Regardless, that’s a solid top-four.
Do the Sabres go out and get another defenseman? Does Montador or Smith enter into the picture, and if they do, with whom are they paired? Nathan Paetsch, while Sekera and Weber are the no.’s seven and eight men? It does allow for flexibility when injuries inevitably strike, but does it impede the growth of our young defensemen?
So many questions, and so few answers.
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About the Authors
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Kevin
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Chris
I am a born and raised Buffalo fan since my birth in Niagara Falls in 1977. For reference, my first communion gift from my parents was a replica Sabres Home White Mike Ramsey jersey. I still have that jersey. After stints at Georgetown and the U.S. Army, I have settled in DC where my Sabres, Bills and Hoyas passion runs unabated (I have season tickets to all 3). I believe that while supporting my franchises is good, I believe supporting them with data and statistics is better. -
dave in Rocha
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Mark
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twoeightnine
I live in a van.
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This is hilarious. SM, in comment 23 you said Darcy got fleeced for Campbell, but then by comment 33 you’re implying that Bernier’s good enough that we should have given him at least one more year to develop. So which one is it?
Here’s the point, which has already been stated numerous times: we got a $3.5M defenseman in Rivet for two decent draft picks that were acquired by moving an apparent slackass with an attitude problem.
In short, we got Rivet for Campbell, which is a pretty damn good move considering anyone who’s not insane realized there was no way Darcy could have signed BC to the contract he ended up getting.
Trevor, how are my points contradictory? Even if I believe that Darcy got fleeced for Campbell (I believe that is self-evident), does it thereby stand that since he got fleeced, he should immediately give up on his modest returns? And if Bernier is a slackass, as you say, shouldn’t our scouts have picked up on this? Oh, wait, Darcy The Genius canned all of our scouts. I guess he could always blame the iMac for not picking up on this alleged bad attitude.
289- True I can’t judge Regier ENTIRELY on what has happened so far. But, the speculation has been hovering around Max since before last year’s trade deadline AND Regier made less-than-encouraging comments about his future with the team in press conferences. So even though I’m not a huge critic of Regier (because I’m not) I am critical of what I perceive as his indecisiveness at times in making moves. Lastly, I just don’t see this team better than last year with only Lalime and Rivet as new faces. The style of play appears to be the same with this roster.
As far as the team improving, you can’t just look at who came and went. You have to look at that our best players are all moving closer to their prime (Roy, Vanek, Poms, Miller, Tallinder among others). We have very few players who are in decline and those who are are not all that important pieces (Mair, Spacek for instance).
Healthy, we are in good shape I think. Add a nice player at the deadline (by nice I mean better than Zubaz) and we can make a nice run.
Kevin2 that’s a good point.
@52: Um, I think it’s self-evident that your claims were contradictory.
The choice with Campbell was letting him walk for nothing or trading him for a modest return. That’s life. I believe Darcy made the best of it.
That said, do I think Darcy will make as many changes that need to be made for us to contend for a cup? No. Is he able to? Who knows? It’s stupid to say they didn’t scout Bernier well enough. How long do you think you have between the time you actually find out who’s willing to trade with you and who they’re willing to offer up? And Darcy didn’t can the two scouts who left for better positions, but I’ve said numerous times before that losing Don Luce could break the back of this team.
I think we needed to make a play for Jeff Carter and get a stronger goalie than Lalime. I think Lindy has trouble motivating his players. I have little confidence in the idea that Miller is good enough to take a team to a championship.
But if one thing is certain, it’s that there needs to be trust and confidence between coaches and players. How much there is now not one of us knows for sure, but there can’t be much with guys like Max and Peters on the roster. So like I’ve said, if they’re on the team in September, Darcy may have some explaining to do.
Trevor, you need to take some logic classes. Don’t know what else there is to say. Not only do you continue to insist that I contradicted myself when I didn’t, but you continue to insist that the scouts “left for better positions”. Have you ever considered that they left after they told their positions were being eliminated? If they merely left for better positions, who replaced them?
Trevor… makes your head spin, doesn’t it??
Indeed.
Wow. A nice little mutual admiration society. Nice indeed.
Who knew you could do research when it comes to writing about the Sabres?
http://www.niagara-gazette.com/local/local_story_189224822.html
Nice. Simple research would show that Paille hasn’t registered for arbitration, contrary to this well researched article.
So he screwed up one point, he’s got 5 dozen more to go before he catches Bucky.
I’d love to see the younger players challenge Max, Kotalik, Connelly, etc. They all have been around long enough to see that no other team currently wants them, or they would have been gone by now. If Weber, etc. end up back in Portland and they go back with a good attitude and play well,(like Roy, Pominville, Paille, Paetsch, etc. did when they were in the AHL) they will get called up and force the Sabres to make some moves. If I was a forward on this team and had one year left on my contract and there are younger players who are proving they can play for the Sabres, I’d get my butt in gear and start playing hockey.
Hmmm, I think the third shoe just fell in the Bernier trade.
http://blues.nhl.com/team/app/?service=page&page=NewsPage&articleid=368024
Man, Darcy got fleeced on this deal… I’d die if the Blues let Darcy know ahead of time that they were going to do it and he still made that trade.
Heh, just coming to point that out.
Not sure exactly what your point is, 289. Are you somehow saying that a 3rd round in 09 and a 2nd round in 2010 is superior to a 2nd round in 09? I say that it is a wash at best. It is also immaterial to my original point, that Darcy Regier, Hero To The Masses, got insufficient value for BC.
Is there inherently more value in a draft pick for next draft than the one after? We’re not talking 1st rounders, so it’s not like trading away a chance at Tavares.
Since when is Darcy is the “hero” to the masses?
Chris, Mark is on a mission, even when presented with contrary evidence, Mark prevarocates. Or, he shoots of red herrings like “hero to the masses.”
As far as getting “fleeced” for Brian Campbell, you really can’t evaluate it without considering Craig Rivet. Who cares about Bernier when we filed an actual need with Rivet. The fact of the matter is, whatever we think about Bernier, he isn’t as highly thought of as Drew Stafford and given that, Bernier was stuck on the third line, at best, for the foreseeable future. I think Tyler Enis, Craig Rivet, and a third rounder is a pretty good return for a guy that is average at best in his own zone and notwithstanding 5/25 wasn’t going to sign with the Sabres even if they failed to trade him at the deadline. I think it’s also worth comparing it to what we got for Drury and Briere, which last I checked amounted to nothing.
Because I totally expect a nonsensical response I will immediately point out that I misspelled “prevaricates.”
He is hero to the masses in this room. Unbelievable. The guy can do no fucking wrong. Even when he has to trade to undo his past wrongs. So he got Rivet. Bully for him. He had to give up a ton to get him. After all was said and done, he gave up a 27 year old $7 million dollar player for a 33 year old 3.5 million player. The market has dictated that Campbell is 2x as valuable as Rivet. You all can bleet, like the sheep that you are, that Campbell is average all you fucking want, but there were 7-8 teams who thought otherwise. They were all willing and able to shell out $6.5-7 million. That says that he is decidedly above average.
We’ll see. The whole point of HAVING a GM/staff (and not just signing the players in order of preference based on the Central Scouting Rankings/HockeyBuzz Free agent rankings) is that sometimes they outmaneuver the market. If Campbell rips off a boatload of goals (and is a + player), you can crow. But if he sucks, what then? The guy had ONE GOOD SEASON.
By the way, I see what you did there, adding and dropping the draft picks from the equation whenever they help/hurt your point.
Nobody says he’s done no wrong, Mark. What we’re saying, simply, is that he isn’t the assclown that you want us to think he is. He is no worse than any other GM in this league, and in my personal opinion, is better than many. You harp on the same issues over and over while shoosing to ignore the overwhelming evidence provided by Eric, Trevor, 289, Kevin, and myself that contradicts EVERY point you’ve made in the last week. You clearly have issues with Darcy, and that’s fine. But I still don’t, and never will, understand your logic.
And if you seriously think that Brian Campbell is worth “$6.5-7 million”, well then I hope you brought enough of whatever it is you’re smoking to share with the rest of us. I like him, I was sorry to se him go, but holy shit! 7 mil is insanity. Would you seriously compare him to Nick Lidstrom (7.6m) or Chara (7.5m) or Niedermayer (6.7m)?? Cause those are the guys in the 7 mil ballpark. They’re ALL top notch veteran defensemen. There’s no way you can compare Campbell to Lidstrom or Niedermayer with a straight face.
Wolf, he is not in their league, but those guys all signed contracts 2-3 years ago. If they came on the market this summer, and they wanted to max out their value, then they would all make over $8 million.
What picks did I leave out, BTW? I know there were other picks involved.
Lastly, I don’t think he is an assclown. I think he is a below average GM, who has made some good moves, but he has been really exposed when it comes to trading. Again, he made some good moves, but when push comes to shove, he does not maximize return for his assets. He idiotically reduces value on standing assets by telling the whole world that he doesn’t want Max back. He continues to build a smaller and smaller team, and trades away the possibly useful bigger players, and keeps the useless oafs like Peters around. I just don’t think he has a vision of what kind of team he wants to ice.
Funny, you say he continues to build a smaller finesse oriented team yet you think keeping Campbell would have changed that? Don’t you think bringing in a guy like Rivet, a physical defenseman with a nasty streak and a pretty good power play game, provides that dimension the Sabres have been missing? Lastly, as much as Brian was and likely still is a nice guy, he let the negotiation process affect his game and when he got to the playoffs, he wasn’t nearly as effective. Rivet on the other hand was an assistant captain that provided leadership for the Sharks and, if you ask most Sharks fans, they will all tell you his voice in the locker room and effort on the ice will be sorely missed.
I can’t believe I keep jumping in to beat this dead horse, but the simple fact – and it is FACT given the salary cap – is that Regier could not afford Campbell without gutting the team a year from now.
Do we forget that Vanek’s cap hit is already 7 mil? Or that the goalie guy will be raking that in next season? And that Pominville will get every penny of 5 mil, if not more?
Yes, any team that wants to tie up 26+ mil in four players is free to do so, and round out the rest of the roster with guys in the million-dollar range. There’s already a formula for that approach – it’s called Tampa Bay.
Call me crazy, but I’d rather not shitcan guys like Hecht, Paille, and Goose just to sign a guy we’ll probably already have forgotten about by next year because of Sekera.
“that Regier could not afford Campbell without gutting the team a year from now.”
But….but…..he could have signed him for 5/25 a year before!!! – Bucky
Last thing I am going to say about it, cuz i agree the horse is dead. I haven’t bashed Regier for not signing Soupy. I said he didn’t get fair value for him at the deadline. Yes, I know he was a rental, but other teams tend to do really stupid things if it will they think it will help them get the cup. Campbell was very valuable, and he brought comparably little in return.
Mark -
“I haven’t bashed Regier for not signing Soupy. I said he didn’t get fair value for him at the deadline. Yes, I know he was a rental, but other teams tend to do really stupid things if it will they think it will help them get the cup. Campbell was very valuable, and he brought comparably little in return.”
Once again, you fail to recognize that Regier doesn’t have a magic wand… he can’t make other teams cough up superstars, which is apparently the only thing that will appease you. He has to look at what’s offered and either accept it, or reject it. If he rejects it, his options are to sign the player, or let him walk for nothing in free agency. And how pissed would you have been if he had rejected the offer from SJ and let Campbell walk for nothing – no picks, no nothing? He knew he couldn’t afford Cambell, so he got what he could for him.
SJ was making a cup run. What exactly did you expect them to give up for Campbell that wouldn’t have hurt their chances?
Its not like he called SJ and asked what he could get and took their offer.
He called every other team that was in the playoff race, got all their offers, played the top 2-4 off each other, then took the best one. Thus he got the market price, which was a project forward and a first rounder. You can say it is a great deal or crappy deal, but there is no question it was the best deal he could have got.
What do you think, he said something like: No thanks Pitt, you keep that little punk Crosby, I think I can turn this guy Bernier around.
As far as Bernier, what would you rather have:
A. 2 draft picks
B. 1 draft pick
C. Bernier for $2.5 million on your fourth line
I’ll take A, thank you.
Since Campbell & Rivet played together in the playoffs last year, there is a good opportunity to compare their current levels of play. The sample size is admittedly small (13 games), but it gives you a chance to see how they played in very similar circumstances.
The two D played against almost identical competition (0.08 for Campbell versus 0.07 for Rivet). Campbell played with better teammates (0.24>-0.01) and produced points at more than double the rate Rivet did: 1.08 PTS/60 compared to 0.52, although Campbell depended heavily on secondary assists to do so and actually had fewer primary assists per 60 minutes by a very slight margin of 0.04. Finally, their plus/minuses were almost identical: 1 for Campbell and 0 for Rivet. None of this takes into consideration special teams play, which I leave as an exercise to the reader.
Take from that what you will.
Source: behindthenet.ca
Kevin2 – 2009 3rd rounder + 2010 2nd rounder = 2009 2nd Rounder.
If someone that a team really likes is still on the board, it is very common in the NHL for a team to trade there 3rd in that year plus the 2nd next year for the #2 in that draft.
Also, why is it so obvious that it was the best offer? Were you in there? Who else was offered? We will never know. Maybe he picked the best offer. Maybe he isn’t a skilled negotiator and someone else could have gotten more. Based on his past record, I am betting this is what happened.
It was obviously the best offer because it was the one he took, dumbass. What do you seriosuly think he took the second best offer? I have no inside knowledge other than I am not a retard.
It was not a negotiation, it was an auction. He did not just contact SJ. Auctions have a nice way of getting you the best price every time. Negotiating skills do not play into this type of situation.
The best offer is in the eyes of the beholder, mongoloid. I love how you have such blind faith that he will automatically make the best choice.
When you make the deals, the presumption is that you will get a servicable player, maybe a 2nd line player who can plug 20-25 goals in, plus a #1. Regier has skillfully and deftly managed to have nothing to show for Campbell, except players who, if they work out, will be able to help the organization in 3-6 years. How is that helping the team now?
Ah yes, your eyes are a better judge of talent and value than a guy who has been paid to do this for the last 10 years at the highest professional level. A guy who has built one Finals team and two other Conference Finals teams. Nope, an internet GM’s eyes know real value.
Isn’t a skilled negotiator when it comes to trades? I may be mistaken but I’m pretty sure it was Darcy who traded for Danny Briere. A trade that James Mirtle, someone who knows a little more about hockey than you and I and everyone on this site, considers one of the most lopsided trades of the last 10 years. http://mirtle.blogspot.com/2007/02/question-for-masses.html
Or did you make that trade? You traded for Chris Drury right? I bet you also traded Michal Grosek for JP Dumont, Doug Gilmore and a draft pick. Those 14 games he played for the Blackhawks were the most important 14 games in NHL history.
Knock Darcy all you want for how he handled the Druiere situation, even he has admitted that he made mistakes, but you can’t say that he has a horrible track record when it comes to trades.
I’m going to tend to have faith in Darcy’s trading skills, especially when he has poached Drury, Briere, Hecht, Lydman, and JP Dumont. You can argue about getting fair value for Peca and Hasek until the cows come home but those two were not exactly normal situations and I’d say the Sabres didn’t do that bad for Peca, a checking line center who had just sat out the year.
Damn you 289. Thanks for stealing my thunder. THANKS A LOT.
Darcy is so stupid for not getting a servicable player, maybe a 2nd line player who can plug 20-25 goals in, plus a #1 that was offered up for Cambell by……… hmmm I can’t seem to remember which team oferred that. That’s not important anyway, what is important is that he took a much worse deal.
Anyways, that much for a 2 month rental player? Seriously? let’s talk about some nice development land I have for sale.
Mark,
Seriously, I’m trying to understand where you’re coming from. So bear with me and play along… if you were GM for a day (God, I sound like Sucky now… thanks a lot!) and you had a player that you absolutely HAVE to move immediately before the trade deadline, what would you do to convince another GM to give you “fair value” How would you go about getting what you wanted? I’m being completely serious… I want to know exactly how you’d convince them to give up what you wanted in return.
And then, when they refuse, which they will because they KNOW your back’s against the wall, I want to know EXACTLY what your next steps would be (and signing that player isn’t an option because you can’t afford what he wants and his agent has broken off negotiations.)